Curse

Lishy · Jul 20, 2009, 07:29 AM // 07:29

However, Upier, keep in mind that if this is PvE we're talking about, you need the actual skill to play a hybrid instead of just going in blindly without having experience of handling a hybrid build.
It just so happens a majority of the playerbase don't care about using prots properly and don't even try to. Because of that, they resort to red-bar ups.
My message from before meant you need darn good skills to play a prot monk, which is why it isn't as appealing, albeit, still superior in the long-run.

I would say the problem is more of a question on skill of monking and not on builds. These days, a lot of players can't seem to notice the aatxe attacking your mesmer and won't care to cast prot spirit on him.

Burst Cancel · Jul 20, 2009, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And anyone saying Spirit Bond is one of the best options isn't aware that they are in Campfire. When you are getting wanded for 300 damage, there is ONLY PS.

This would be a good argument if being wanded for 300 was the norm; the reality is that most damage packets in HM fall right inside the SB sweet spot.

In a two-monk backline, both PS and SB will see play.

Arkantos · Jul 20, 2009, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

And anyone saying Spirit Bond is one of the best options isn't aware that they are in Campfire. When you are getting wanded for 300 damage, there is ONLY PS.

Apparently someone doesn't know that you can use SB and PS on the same target.

Also, SB does help when you're getting pressured by lesser damage attacks.

YunSooJin · Jul 20, 2009, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

However, Upier, keep in mind that if this is PvE we're talking about, you need the actual skill to play a hybrid instead of just going in blindly without having experience of handling a hybrid build.
It just so happens a majority of the playerbase don't care about using prots properly and don't even try to. Because of that, they resort to red-bar ups.
My message from before meant you need darn good skills to play a prot monk, which is why it isn't as appealing, albeit, still superior in the long-run.

I would say the problem is more of a question on skill of monking and not on builds. These days, a lot of players can't seem to notice the aatxe attacking your mesmer and won't care to cast prot spirit on him.

A hybrid doesn't take that much skill to play. If someone is being trained, guardian him. What skill? Warrior leading the charge? prot spirit. See a grey arrow on their bar? Use condition removal. Blind red bar mashing is stupid and ineffective.

Lishy · Jul 20, 2009, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Apparently someone doesn't know that you can use SB and PS on the same target.

600+hp though to trigger SB while PSed?

Arkantos · Jul 20, 2009, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

A hybrid doesn't take that much skill to play. If someone is being trained, guardian him. What skill? Warrior leading the charge? prot spirit. See a grey arrow on their bar? Use condition removal. Blind red bar mashing is stupid and ineffective.

No, it doesn't take much skill to play, but it takes more skill than a HB/UA monk, which is why hybrids are played less. Ineffective? This isn't PvP. PvE is a joke. Sadly all you need is a HB/UA monk to win PvE with ease, especially with SY.

YunSooJin · Jul 20, 2009, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

600+hp though to trigger SB while PSed?

If you don't even know the basics, why are you even posting like you have some sort of authority? Seriously, take a back seat, read a little and learn something before you start talking about the virtues of orison FFS.

Burst Cancel · Jul 20, 2009, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

600+hp though to trigger SB while PSed?

Yet again, you don't actually understand how these skills work:
http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit_Bond

And that's ignoring the fact that pretty much everyone should have max HP >600 anyway.

upier · Jul 20, 2009, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

However, Upier, keep in mind that if this is PvE we're talking about, you need the actual skill to play a hybrid instead of just going in blindly without having experience of handling a hybrid build.
It just so happens a majority of the playerbase don't care about using prots properly and don't even try to. Because of that, they resort to red-bar ups.
My message from before meant you need darn good skills to play a prot monk, which is why it isn't as appealing, albeit, still superior in the long-run.

I would say the problem is more of a question on skill of monking and not on builds. These days, a lot of players can't seem to notice the aatxe attacking your mesmer and won't care to cast prot spirit on him.

And as I have said - that can simply not be used as an argument why sub-par options should be used.
A player with a skill-level of X with s sub-par build will still perform worse than a player with a skill-level of X with a superior build. The sub-par option is worse and the only reason why we don't perceive it as such is because PvE is so easy that it allows for sub-par options to win.
If bad players and bad builds were unable to win - we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

In a two-monk backline, both PS and SB will see play.

I figured we were discussing a build for a single monk and not multiple monks in a group. If we're talking about one monk PS always comes before SB - but with 16 skill slots, yes, SB is an option.

IronSheik · Jul 20, 2009, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

And that's ignoring the fact that pretty much everyone should have max HP >600 anyway.

Lol PvE pugs.

Tyla · Jul 20, 2009, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Tyla, two words: Protective Spirit.
Use it.

Ether Renewal can go to hell.

Who said I don't? I'm merely saying that if you want red-bars-up, take Infuse and Heal Party on an Ether Renewal bar. It's better, more brainless and is more resilient.

Avarre · Jul 20, 2009, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Guild Wars is a game that does not penalize poor play. Rather, there are a great number of skills that practically complement it. It's hardly any surprise that the average player takes the easy road rather than learning to play the game. That would take time and effort, which distracts from maxing Norn titles.

Expecting general battlefield awareness is too much to ask from most players. They see pretty graphics, not what they mean.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

600+hp though to trigger SB while PSed?

600hp in farming builds increases the cap for smite damage; it has nothing to do with SB.

YunSooJin · Jul 20, 2009, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Guild Wars is a game that does not penalize poor play. Rather, there are a great number of skills that practically complement it. It's hardly any surprise that the average player takes the easy road rather than learning to play the game. That would take time and effort, which distracts from maxing Norn titles.

Expecting general battlefield awareness is too much to ask from most players. They see pretty graphics, not what they mean.

600hp in farming builds increases the cap for smite damage; it has nothing to do with SB.

I guess what I'm really asking is these idiots are getting their build from somewhere. There's too much of a similarity from the bars I've been seeing. So where does this disease of stupidity come from? Why is it spreading? There must be a source that I can nuke from orbit somehow, or at least attempt to dismantle.

IronSheik · Jul 20, 2009, 09:51 AM // 09:51

First of all www.pvxwiki.com

Second, what is your ideal monk PuG bar? Because you're asking for bad bars by pugging, so what is this superb bar you're yearning for?

paranon · Jul 20, 2009, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

600+hp though to trigger SB while PSed?

Seriously man, i am pissing myself at this... go learn to monk, THEN try posting opinions in the monk forum.

I quote, from wiki:
"This skill will trigger if damage taken is above 60 before any damage reduction (such as from Protective Spirit or Reversal of Fortune)"

I also quote, for shield of absorption:
"The damage reduction is cumulative. It reduces 5 damage from the first hit, 10 from the second, 15 from the third and so on. However, if the spell is recast before its duration ends (possible with an extension of 50% for enchantments) the amount of damage absorbed resets at 5 rather than continuing from the last amount."

I know loads of people who have just started monks, or who are just starting to play them seriously, who make these kind of mistakes, they are very common. But these people have the sense to NOT post on a guru monking forum until they know what the hell they are talking about.

Personally, i play hybrid bars pretty much wherever I am. Prot is way more energy efficient than healing when played well, but a team has to have some kind of red bar otherwise people would just die slowly, hybrid is the best of both worlds and in my opinion, the best.

Here is my general hybrid bar:

-Prot Spirit (swap for sb if the other monk has prot spirit and i trust them to use it)
-Shield of Absorption
-Patient Spirit
-Word of Healing
-Rebirth
-Glyph of Lesser Energy
-Ebon battle standard of courage (read on for explanation)
-Dismiss Condition (swap for seed of life if the party has a tank)

Most of the skills on there are pretty standard, they are MY preferences, obviously other people have other, equally valid preferences, but unfortunately there are only 8 skills on the bar and we can't fit in everybody's preferences.

The main Skill on there people usually ask me about is ebon battle standard of courage. but in my opinion, if you think about it, it makes sense:

Ebon battle standard of courage:
"(14...20 seconds.) Allies in this ward have +24 armor and +24 more armor against Charr."
"+24 armor reduces armor-affected damage by 33%"

This means that in an eight man party, lets say that 6 people are standing in the ward at any one time, the ward, for 10 energy, reduces every single hit, every single arrow, every single elementalist spell, etc, by 33%, for 20 seconds, for 10 energy.

using glyph of lesser energy on this ward at the start of a fight makes the monk's life SO much easier, try it.

YunSooJin · Jul 20, 2009, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

First of all www.pvxwiki.com

Second, what is your ideal monk PuG bar? Because you're asking for bad bars by pugging, so what is this superb bar you're yearning for?

This 'ideal' bar doesn't really exist, since it depends on what area you're about to face.

An example bar would be:

Patient Spirit
WoH
Prot Spir
Guardian
Spotless Mind
Dismiss
SoA
<something..res? stance? whatever>

IronSheik · Jul 20, 2009, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

This 'ideal' bar doesn't really exist, since it depends on what area you're about to face.

An example bar would be:

Patient Spirit
WoH
Prot Spir
Guardian
Spotless Mind
Dismiss
SoA
<something..res? stance? whatever>

I see your build no better than the casual HB bar

Granted it's a fine hybrid, thank god PS is in there. But hexes and conditions in PvE aren't worth removing, they're reapplied nearly instantly, daze doesn't occur enuff to bring a remover over. And any blind is either spam or can be interrupted easily.

So why is your monk bar still not imba after this thread?

paranon · Jul 20, 2009, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

I see your build no better than the casual HB bar

Granted it's a fine hybrid, thank god PS is in there. But hexes and conditions in PvE aren't worth removing, they're reapplied nearly instantly, daze doesn't occur enuff to bring a remover over. And any blind is either spam or can be interrupted easily.

So why is your monk bar still not imba after this thread?

I totally agree with this. Dismiss is the skill that i swap out if anything else needs bringing. In hex/condition-light areas theres no point in removing the odd condition/hex because it makes no difference - there are better things to spend energy on (remove bleeding or heal 200hp? hmmmmmm....)

In hex/condition heavy areas, one skill is not enough to keep people clean because as IronSheik said, it is reapplied half a second after you remove it.

Crash Override · Jul 20, 2009, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Wait, so there's no point in removing Empathy or Soothing Images off of your Warriors? What about Spiteful Spirit? I almost never leave without bringing a condition and hex removal when I'm on my monk.

Flame me for being a noob all you want, but HB is a good skill and I enjoy using it. The real problem is bad monks PvX'ing their builds. However, this problem can apply to any class with any popular meta build.

paranon · Jul 20, 2009, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash Override

Wait, so there's no point in removing Empathy or Soothing Images off of your Warriors? What about Spiteful Spirit? I almost never leave without bringing a condition and hex removal when I'm on my monk.

Flame me for being a noob all you want, but HB is a good skill and I enjoy using it. The real problem is bad monks PvX'ing their builds. However, this problem can apply to any class with any popular meta build.

Yes there is a point in removing those skills, but it is only worth bringing hex/condition removal if those spells are there and the people affected make it known that they have them early on.

90% of areas don't have hexes or conditions worth removing and 90% of people don't bother calling these things, they just wait for them to run down.

In most cases there are better things to take on a monk bar imo.

Yes HB is a good skill, but there are better ones.

I wholly disagree with you when you say "The real problem is bad monks PvX'ing their builds." Pvxwiki is full of good builds, there are very few "bad" builds on there. The real problem is just bad monks, it doesn't matter where they get their builds from. I would rather a bad monk pvx'ed their build than made their own (which will most probably be crap), at least then it gives them a head start in that they have a build that works, they just need to learn to use it well.